Dispute: Telepathy, Mephiston vs Alfred

[Luke]

The question here is fairly simple, it seems. Who is the better/stronger telepath - Alfred, one whose entire ability consists of such and likely rivals Sister Psyche (though not bests, presumably), or Meph, who is a vampire*. And whilst game level generally shouldn't be taken into account, it is at least somewhat relevant here, I'm sure.

*Apparently, this gives you super strength, invulnerability, immortality, wisdom, and super mental powers, as well as an ability to call people 'mortal' a lot offensively.

[Kitmarch]

Okay, loathe though I am to get involved with what could be a personal dispute....

I understand the basis for this is Alfred trying to get into Meph's head. Two things occur there.

1) The amount of strength to "attack" a remote position successfuly will most likely have to significantly exceed the defensive strength. So a given person would not have to be as strong as Alfred to hold thier own. Alfred would most likely have to push, which would be considered by all parties (himself included) as a direct intrusion attempt/attack on another's mind. That's gonna cause a heck of a lot of angst.

2) Please forgive the following assumptions about other people's characters. By "not as strong" I don't mean that the person can be defenceless. He's going to be able to slip into most people's heads pretty much at will. However, a "supernatural" will most probably have defences as pointed out earlier. That and any non-human aspects of Meph's psyche are going to make it tough going.

Ultimately though, Alfred is a full time focused psionic and Meph isn't. Push comes to shove, he's almost certainally going to win out. I just don't think it'll be a walkover. And of course, there are all sorts of non-mental unpleasentness Meph can visit on Alfred while he is so occupied, so it kinda balances out.

If I've got the wrong end of the stick with said dispute, please feel free to beat me over the head with said stick and I'll modify my opinions acordingly.

[Kitmarch]

Oh, and while I'm ranting, Vampires

Okay, may be slightly coloured here by a certain near godmodder I ran into when I first came along but....

Wasn't aware Wisdom was an automatic bonus. You can be immortal and still be a fool, as far as I can tell.


As for the rest, well I'm not sure which section of vampire lore our resident fang-gang are based on, but most of the times I've run into vamps in past games, there have been different lines, with different strengths and weaknesses. Yes, some have been mental giants, some have been more physical. Okay, a base amount of superior characteristics is going to apply across the board, but having wide ranging ability in all departments sounds a little wrong. Not that I believe any of us is going to do that.
They're going to be superior to base humans in every respect, but we're dealing with superheroes here! And I think that's an important point.

And I don't think I've ever seen a PC vampire that could be classed as "invulnerable".

As for calling people "mortal" in an offensive manner.... comes with the territory. Deal with it.


Oh dear... it sounds like I've been vamp bashing doesn't it? Not intended that way, honest.

[Ves]

Who is the better/stronger telepath

I'd agree that Alfred is the better/stronger telepath of the pair,

However,

The argument today wasn't about telepathy, it was about mental defence Vs mental intrusion.

Even someone with no telepathic powers at all can resist a mental attack via sheer force of will and knowing their own mind, a telepath tries to place an image in their head but the victim knows it to be false, thus the image has no effect. This has been the case in almost countless sci-fi and fantasy games, books, films and TV shows.

And whilst game level generally shouldn't be taken into account, it is at least somewhat relevant here, I'm sure.

Well now, if we're taking in-game technicalities into account then you have 0 telepathic abilities, you're a blaster who uses the Energy and Devices power sets. This is Role Play, where such lines and defining details are IGNORED. Akkarin is a Kat/DA Scrapper, and yet we all accept that he is master of some seriously powerful magic abilities, he even takes on pupils, Mephiston being one of them. DO NOT try to make technical details work in your favour as they clearly won't, if that was the case then you should have rolled a Mind Control/Kinetics Controller, end of story.

some have been mental giants, some have been more physical. Okay, a base amount of superior characteristics is going to apply across the board, but having wide ranging ability in all departments sounds a little wrong

I agree again, and have never claimed to have wide ranging abilities of a high level. Vampires are known (in pretty much ALL classic lore, the childish hollywood junk doesn't count IMO) to have some degree of mental prowess, the ability to cloud the minds of their victims, seduction and the ability to dominate the minds of lesser creatures are all generally accepted to a pretty much universal degree (hence the fact that they often had a flood of minions and servants at their disposal)

Though Mephiston does not specialise in the area of mental prowess, he does still have the inherent mental control of his kind, he cannot project his will as some can, nor can he delve into the minds of others, but he is the true master of his own mind, and has had centuries during which to hone his abilities (371 years to be exact) and as such his ability to protect his own mind would far surpass anything but a direct assault by a focused psychic, so unless Alfred was attempting to destroy his mind then he would, as I said at the time, brush his attempt aside with a mocking laugh.

However, a "supernatural" will most probably have defences as pointed out earlier. That and any non-human aspects of Meph's psyche are going to make it tough going.

Got it spot on there Kit, and thanks for pointing that out.


My actions were in retaliation to Alfred trying to alter the mental barriers I had raised to keep him out of my mind. Those attempts could have been viewed as an attack and he could have reacted with violence, but since Mephiston has sworn to defend and protect he did not take that route, instead he just kicked Alfred from his head, and mocked him for his failed attempts.

If refusing to allow someone to enter or affect my mind is God Modding then the state of RP has come to a sorry point, Meph reacted as he would have done to ANYONE who made an attempt to enter his mind without his permission, and after the events leading to this the mocking laughter was more than called for. You were informed several times that his mental defences were strong enough to repel all but the most determined attacks, and yet you STILL thought to try your luck. What did you expect?

ability to call people 'mortal' a lot offensively.

Of course a vampire has the ability to call people "mortal" and mean it offensively, YOU ARE FOOD to them, do you respec the burger you buy from McDonalds? The fries to go with it? No, because it's food, they exist to keep you alive. The same principle applies here, though Mephiston does not feed on people as he used to he can still have the same lack of respect for those who anger or annoy him.

And i'd just like to make one final point, this argument is only relevant between Alfred and Mephiston, and the actions taken will not be affecting any of my other characters in any way, shape or form.

[Kitmarch]

Clicky

Oh, and incidentally, I now plan to be highly insulting to my next burger before I eat it ;D

[Akkarin]

Foolish sandwhich, you shall pay for your insolence!

On this matter I personaly feel Mephiston would have his thoughts safe. I can't actually say how much force Alfred was using, but I'd assume he wouldn't make a full attack in that situation (could be wrong of course). In an OOC sense I think telepathy is a difficult area, sometimes a player isn't going to want certain information in the characters head to be revealed, saying that you can find it out anyway isn't far from god-modding (not accusing anyone here, just making the point)

It's certainly reasonable to say that a vampire would have some level of mental prowess, it appears in a great deal of the fiction around them. Akkarin initialy had some, before all the magic stuff, which he'd developed over the course of several years.

If it came down to it, I think Alfred could break down Mephistons mental barriers with a full on attack, but then he'd have to deal with the consequences since he'd be going directly against what Akkarin has told him.

[Shadowe]

As I wasn't party to this event, I can't say much about what seems to have gone on, though it strikes as slightly out of character for Alfred to try to force the issue - though I do accept that there are sides to Alfred's character that I don't know much about.

Really, what we have here is a superlative mind-reader faced with a non-human's mental defences that we all seem to agree would be better than a normal human's. I'm inclined to say that Alfred would still pull off surface impressions - they leak out almost no matter how hard you try to stop them, but a determined probe of Meph's thoughts would hit something of a stone wall. At which point we're on to the "concerted attack" required to break through.

What I would say is that vampires are far more focused on exerting their will on others than on defending their own minds - though I'm not saying they don't have gifts in that regard, their 'mental defences' will be considerably weaker than their overall mental strength would generally indicate.

As Alfred is mainly a receptor telepath (his uncontrolled detection of random thoughts would seem to indicate this), it stands to reason that his mental attacks, which would be required to break down Meph's mental defences might not be up to snuff. Since we can't realistically judge the strength of flange-abilities (thanks Kit), we have to fall back on the social rules established for GG, and state that an attempt to break through Meph's defences when he has said he's blocking would be doomed to failure as godmodding.

I would, on the other hand, be most interested in how the situation would look if Luminescence attempted to project an image at Meph and he tried to block it. Though it has not been clearly documented, L's mental projections are by far her most powerful ability, though it is established that magical wards are capable of at least mitigating the effects of her projections. She is at least as powerful at mental control as any vampire you would care to mention, though she's still mostly untrained. I was careful to model her and build her around that premise, and her powers in-game are merely examples of the things she does with her full array of abilities.

To put it succinctly, she has extremely powerful mental attacks, and could theoretically project her thoughts onto the mind of another without even knowing she's doing it, the question is would a vampire's (or Meph's in particular) mental defences shield them entirely from the effects, merely mitigate them so the power works but has no impact, or would they be affected regardless?

[subaiku]

I don't know either of the characters in questions more than superficially (and since I am not in FA, maybe I should just stay out of it anyway. But like someone said, if you are in coalition with us, you'll have to live with our opinions too.)

Vampires: They are so many different breeds and styles of vampires that you can pretty much create any kind of superpowerful being and call it vampire, and hence it's diffucult to say "He's a vampire, he should be X or shouldnt be Y."

But from what is posted here and seen ingame, it seems you are saying that vampires have stronger than human defenses against telepathy. That in itself doesn't really say much, just that they HAVE defenses against telepathy, which imo normal people don't really have (but reading their mind can still be difficult, especially finding specific information.)

In MY opinion, vampires would have good defense against human telepath, due to their own mind abilities and them being different species. It doesn't however mean that reading their mind would be terribly difficult. It would require effort, and it would be clearly noticable for the vampire, but a "mid-range" telepath should be able to read vampire's mind. (Of course, if the vampire notices his mind is being read, he can rip the telepath in question in little pieces and that's that.)

Alfred, has been established as being far more powerful than mid-range telepath and IMO should -with trying- be able to break through average vampire's mind. BUT the vampire would notice it, it wouldn't be fast, and it would require effort. Also the things in vampires mind can be rather confusing and upsetting for human telepath, they are different type of predators who view the world in different ways.

Consequences for trying / breaking into someone's mind would be heavy though, IMO. It is ultimate invasion of privacy and I bet there is lot of characters who would not tolerate that. For example, if a superfighter like... Inago wanted to know something Subaiku knows, he could capture her and torture her until she tells him what he wants to know. But besides being morally wrong, other heroes reactions to Inny afterwards would give very heavy consequences for it. Reading mind is physically harmless, but much more invasive.

Okay, that's just the theory part.

In practise, if Meph says he doesn't want his char's mind to be read, then it will not be read. However without going to pissing match whose da..char is stronger , you should negotiate together and find plausible explanation why it doesn't happen. Alfred COULD do it, but chooses not to because.... he thinks it's wrong? he thinks other heroes would spit on him if he does that? Alfred could THEORETICALLY do it, but is tired / suffering from headache / experiencing some interference from somewhere (like a million voices would have cried out...). Alfred tries to read meph's mind but gets awfully distracted by the teenager lust and has to go see Kit really fast? OR you can just say that one of the most powerful telepaths in the world is unable to read normal vampire's mind, but that does gives big powerboost to ALL vampires who you'd come in contact with later.

Now I'm hungry and will fetch some blood ^^D sandwitches.

Subaiku

[Rachis]

[Shanghai Blue]

Well, I think Subaiku's post should knock this one on the head.

For myself, in respect for both players involved, I am going to remain neutral to this OOC.

I am considering Jessie's opinion on this though.

[Ves]

Since we can't realistically judge the strength of flange-abilities (thanks Kit), we have to fall back on the social rules established for GG, and state that an attempt to break through Meph's defences when he has said he's blocking would be doomed to failure as godmodding.

Music to my ears.

I would, on the other hand, be most interested in how the situation would look if Luminescence attempted to project an image at Meph and he tried to block it.

That would depend upon the nature of the image in question, cute lil bunnies and Meph would probably start drooling, anything that could be considered as an attack would have to be agreed on prior to the action or as stated previously

Even someone with no telepathic powers at all can resist a mental attack via sheer force of will and knowing their own mind, a telepath tries to place an image in their head but the victim knows it to be false, thus the image has no effect. This has been the case in almost countless sci-fi and fantasy games, books, films and TV shows.

Granted it would require considerable effort to gather the mental strength to shake off such an attack, or maybe he would just let the image sweep into his mind, but then you have the problem of actually attacking someone registered as a hero without any form of justification in a legal sense, making the person projecting the image nothign more than a common criminal. This was also a path I could have taken last night, not sure how the general populance at GG would have reacted to a rogue telepath mentally attacking another hero in broad daylight for no reason other than he doesn't think he's good for the girl he's with. Perhaps I should have taken that option and watched as Alfred tried to explain his actions to those in attendance.


Now personally I would rather the entire affair ended here and now. Mephiston will not let Alfred into his head for any reason, the only way he's going to get in is if he makes a determined assault on his mind and as has been pointed out already

If it came down to it, I think Alfred could break down Mephistons mental barriers with a full on attack, but then he'd have to deal with the consequences since he'd be going directly against what Akkarin has told him.

For some reason Alfred has decided that Mephiston is unsuitable for Meadow and as such has decided to interfere with the couple, openly insult Mephiston and call into question the judgement of Akkarin for letting Meph hang around in general. We all know that Alfred can be a little over protective, though in this case he's over stepping the mark. If he has an issue with the pair's behaviour he should have taken it up with Akkarin and possibly the rest of the FA in a meeting at the base (granted fudge would need to be applied in the event of a meeting as I'm both the controller of the accused and one of the 2nd rank in the group and can't be in 2 places at once so would have to rely on various speech binds and such)

However, taking up a personal vendetta against Mephiston (who's done nothing wrong or inappropriate for the characters involved I'd like to add) is only going to create friction between the 2 in the future, Mephiston will never forgive Alfred for the things he has said and done, and as such will never become involved in any matters which have any bearing on Alfred's general well being, either mental, emotional or physical. And if further attempts to invade his mental privacy are made then the matter will be called to the attention of Akkarin and the other leaders for them to take action as they see fit.

((And if further unfounded accusations of God-Modding are slung around then as a player I shall have no option but to completly ignore the plot. An easy thing to do with so many viable RP toons in my stable, Mephiston will simply depart the city and Ves and Jaine will play out more often, not an option I want to take as I do enjoy playing Meph a whole lot, but one that will be made if need be. If I had been at fault then fine, but as stated here I clearly was not, and was fully justified in my reaction. I know that no apology will be offered for the accusations, so let this whole matter end here and then we can all just carry one as normal))

[Meadow]

First post on this forum .. and im gonna make it short

As said before there could be several reasons to why Alfred couldnt get into Meph's mind.

So .. i would like to remind both of you that Mephiston were getting really mad and perhabs

even a bit more defensive than usual. Hence he could have prepaired himself for Alfreds

attempt or anything else unwanted. Mephiston is aware of Alfreds powers and could have

prepared himself..

please dont flame me

[Ves]

*sighs sadly*

I had hoped that this whole matter could be swept under the carpet and forgotten, the initial argument appeared to have been resolved and that should have been the end of it.

However, I look around the other posts and what do I find?

((Oh, don't worry, Alfred will get around to smashing Meph to bits for being a manipulative, evil bastard someday, never fear. ))

For someone that claims to be a telepath, and someone that claims to suffer from the inability to ignore surface thoughts, you'd expect them to ASK WHAT THE SURFACE THOUGHTS WERE. How many times did Alfred declare that he felt no love between Meph and Meadow? (quite a few) Now compare that with the number of times he asked Meph what he was thinking of (LESS than 0)

Who's the manipulative one now?

The whole point to this post is a farewell. This is my final post as an FA member, and by that I refer to me as a player, not as any individual toon. I cannot play in an atmosphere where one person can decide what everyone else is or isn't thinking and feeling, then flame them to bits when they disagree.

As Ves and Meph are both involved with other characters on a more personal level than any of my others they will continue to be visitors to GG, though an internal RetCon will have removed all links with the FA as my reasons for leaving are purely OOC.

It pains me to go to such drastic measures but it is clear that some people will not stop until they get what they want, which in this case seems to be th destruction of one of my toons because he isn't liked by someone else. Some thing i'm not prepared to endure.

So I bid the majority of you a fond farewell, I have truely enjoyed my time with most of you, the FA has been like a home to me almost since my first visit to GG. Maybe I'll see you around, I hope so, but wouldn't count on it overly much.

[rogaldorn3]

Woah.
Um... Ves, that's sad news. But if you really feel you have to fine.
But is it worth leaving us over something like this?